Moderator: ofonorow
Johnwen wrote:
Owen;
On some of these posts about Liposomes. You mention bioavailability taking 2 hours and the liver breaking down liposomes and having higher blood levels or slower delivery and on and on.
Like the commercial where the elder lady puts pictures on the wall of her house and the other lady says “That’s not how this works, That’s not how any of this works!” Is what comes to mind when I read some of these posts.
First, Low bioavailability is one of the advantages of liposome delivery! Why because it delivers it’s contents directly to the cells where it attaches to the cell and as it’s digested into the cell or tissue directly!
If serum levels increase it’s because the encapsulation FAILED and released it’s contents prematurely, before it attached to the cells or tissue. Granted there will be some residual elevation in the readings but this is due to failure to make it completely into the vehicle or the vehicle was not proper and dissolved in serum.
The liver does not deal with fresh lipo’s for the same reason cholesterol continues to circulate in the blood. Only when the lipids have been digested or attached to another vehicle does the liver take them back in for processing.
Think LP(a) or HDL!
Anyway here’s some links to get you more familiar with how these work. I hope it helps in your understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liposome
http://www.pharmacistspharmajournal.org ... ystem.html
I can break this down to an analogy for clarity if you feel you need a little better understanding. Right now I have to run! Let me know??
From WIKI:
These liposomes may be digested while in the macrophage's phagosome, thus releasing its drug. Liposomes can also be decorated with opsonins and ligands to activate endocytosis in other cell types.
Liposomal absorption is very different from gastro-intestinal absorption. When we eat something, the nutrients are typically broken down in our stomach and intestines with acid, enzymes and bacteria. When the molecules are small enough, they can slip between intestinal cells, and into our blood stream. The liver and other organs then spring into action and re-assemble the more complex molecules, such as enzymes, lipids and hormones.
Liposomes, such as glutathione liposomes, work around this break-down, absorb, then re-assemble protocol. Because on the surface the liposome looks exactly as a human cell and the two will merge, very much like two soap bubbles will merge into one larger one. Liposomes are NOT digested. They are not broken down!
The possible reasoning proposed by the authors was that since the serum proteins are negatively charged in physiological conditions, they may induce liposome aggregation which may get
entrapped when passing through the liver (18)
Owen said: but it did seem like they said the maximum encapsulation was 30%? (Emek's method is almost 100%).
Long-circulating liposomes
The fast and efficient elimination of conventional liposomes from the circulation by liver and spleen macrophages has seriously compromised their application for the treatment of the wide range of diseases involving other tissues. The advent of new formulations of liposomes that can persist for prolonged periods of time in the bloodstream led to a revival of interest in liposomal delivery systems at the end of the 1980s. In fact, the long-circulating liposomes opened a realm of new therapeutic opportunities that were up to then unrealistic because of efficient MPS uptake of conventional liposomes. Perhaps the most important key feature of long circulating liposomes is that they are able to extra vasate at body sites where the permeability of the vascular wall is increased. Fortunately, regions of increased capillary permeability include pathological areas such as solid tumors and sites of infection and inflammation.
WIKI on Macrophage:
When a monocyte enters damaged tissue through the endothelium of a blood vessel, a process known as the leukocyte extravasation, it undergoes a series of changes to become a macrophage. Monocytes are attracted to a damaged site by chemical substances through chemotaxis, triggered by a range of stimuli including damaged cells, pathogens and cytokines released by macrophages already at the site. At some sites such as the testis, macrophages have been shown to populate the organ through proliferation. Unlike short-lived neutrophils, macrophages survive longer in the body up to a maximum of several months
Hickey et al wrote:Liposomal vitamin C is NOT more effective than IV for fighting acute infections.
My wife and I and children have personally experienced the benefits and the curing of numerous coughs and colds. It was I that had the uvulitis. I took 8 spoons at once followed by another 4 spoons 3 hours later, and another 4 spoons 3 hours after that, and the infection literally disappeared! Bear in mind that the uvula had nearly tripled in size and I had called an emergency doctor and was preparing to visit my local hospital A&E(ER).
1) Why the delay measuring the liposomal C in the blood?
Wiki quote:
Macrophages are versatile cells that play many roles. As scavengers, they rid the body of worn-out cells and other debris. Along with dendritic cells, they are foremost among the cells that present antigens, a crucial role in initiating an immune response. As secretory cells, monocytes and macrophages are vital to the regulation of immune responses and the development of inflammation; they produce a wide array of powerful chemical substances (monokines) including enzymes, complement proteins, and regulatory factors such as interleukin-1. At the same time, they carry receptors for lymphokines that allow them to be "activated" into single-minded pursuit of microbes and tumour cells.
2) Can we even measure liposomal C in the blood between hours 2 and 3 using the glucose (FREESTYLE LITE) meter?
1 teaspoon of liposomal contains 1 gram of vitamin C.
Dr. Andrew Saul says;
Lecithin is good for you. How good? Each tablespoon (7.5 grams) of lecithin granules contains about 1700 mg of phosphatidyl choline, 1000 mg of phosphatidyl inositol, and about 2,200 mg of essential fatty acids as linoleic acid. It also contains the valuable fish-oil-like, omega-3 linolenic acid. It is the rule, not the exception, for one or more of these valuable substances to be undersupplied by our daily diet.
about 2,200 mg of essential fatty acids as linoleic acid. It also contains the valuable fish-oil-like, omega-3 linolenic acid.
about 2,200 mg of essential fatty acids as linoleic acid. It also contains the valuable fish-oil-like, omega-3 linolenic acid. It is the rule, not the exception, for one or more of these valuable substances to be undersupplied by our daily diet.
The ratio of 400/1000:
The volume of a sphere = (4/3)*pi*radius^3.
Surface area of a sphere = = 4*pi*radius^2
That means that the for a 200 nm particle the volume enclosed is 37 times larger than the surface area of the liposome. That means that you need around 27 mg of PC to encapsulate 1000 mg of vitamin c. We use 400 mg so that people get some phosphatidylcholine nutrition.
Our liposomes remain stable in water due to natural forces. This is due to the high ionic strength (large amount of charge) that is on the inside of the liposome. The outside of the liposome remains stable due to the low amount of charge on the outside which allows the hydrophobic components wanting to be together.
For all of these e-mails, I apologize for using equations and mentioning a lot of very technical concepts briefly. Lipid structuring is what I have been doing for over a decade and these types of questions are extremely complicated. Perhaps you and I should come up with some simplified answers that are still scientifically valid.
What is the scientific backing for the statements that LivOnLabs makes?
Best regards,
Emek
That means that you need around 27 mg of PC to encapsulate 1000 mg of vitamin c.
The ratio of 400/1000:
The volume of a sphere = (4/3)*pi*radius^3.
Surface area of a sphere = = 4*pi*radius^2
That means that the for a 200 nm particle the volume enclosed is 37 times larger than the surface area of the liposome. That means that you need around 27 mg of PC to encapsulate 1000 mg of vitamin c.
It’s like saying he’s stuffing a hundred pounds of Do-Do in a five pound bag!
That’s a 37 to 1 Ratio or said another way Their doing a 3705% encapsulation????
Let’s say you have a tiny box that holds 27 mg of PC and another that holds 1000Mg. Of ascorbic acid. Now what he’s trying to say is he’s going to jam that bigger box of ascorbic acid inside the smaller box of PC. Yea the inside volume of the product in the little box has voids but the outer part of the sphere is what’s occupying the volume of the box. That’s what give the product it’s volume of 27 Mg. In fact the density of PC is greater then V-C which means the box of PC is going to be about 15% smaller then an equal amount of V-C. Now unless the V-C is a gas no matter now hard you try there is no way your going to fit the 1000 Mg of V-C in a box that is the size to hold 27Mg. Of PC.
If the products and applications were switched it would be feasible however as written I would have to say the following line applies here!
To me there’s an old saying that I believe applies here.
“If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, Baffle them with BS!”
Using the 200 Nanometer figure you would have to put 127,000 of these spheres next to each other in a line to equal 1 INCH!
So tell How Big would a 27 Mg. Box be????
27 Mg. is a unit of weight not size as I said before One teaspoon of PC equals 5 grams.
The volume of the weight.
1 Teaspoons (US) = 0.30077993227 Cubic Inch
5000Mg. Of PC per teaspoon
So we divide the cubic inch by 5000 and multiply it by 27 and get the size!
0.30077993227/5000*27=.0016621163 Cubic inches
About this size “.”
Not much is it???? Now cram a 1000mg V-C capsule of powder into that dot!
Good luck!
Added later:
BTW: That dot as a cube can hold 9,405,789 -200Nm diameter Liposome’s
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