Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

[MillieNeon]

Hi. Had a pacemaker put in 2008. Then in March of 2013, was very short of breath and had a medicated stent put in LAD branch artery that was 90% blocked. Doc said I had 10% blockage in another artery, and 30% in another. He wasn't worried about those two. Then a couple weeks ago (Oct. 22), I was at the gym and had a heart attack. So friggin humiliating to have a heart attack at the gym. Sigh. I did take the aspirin/Plavix for a year after the stent, but stopped after that (against doc's wishes). Doc also wanted me on a statin, and I refused to take that. I also have had Hep C for about 40 years. It's inactive, and a liver biopsy showed it was at the most minimal stage.

So when I had my heart attack a couple weeks ago, I was rushed to the nearest hospital, and a new (to me) doc did the cath and the stent was 100% blocked. He also said I had a 50% block in another artery (which I assume was the one that was 30% blocked). I was in the hospital for 4 days because the enzyme "tropopin" stayed elevated. So while in the hospital, I called my regular doc, and he had moved to NYC (from Chicago). Guess the other hospital wouldn't let him tell his patients. So now, this new doc is my doc, and I like him. And, stupidly, I've been a smoker for over 50 years (I'm 67). Yes. I quit cold turkey on October 22. But I digress.

He put me back on Plavix and aspirin, and he wanted me on Lopressor and another beta blocker. I'm taking the Plavix and aspirin (for now), but refused the other stuff. He didn't give me much blah blah over that, probably cause he knows those are bad for the liver. So, I found the Linus Pauling Therapy stuff on the web. Just got Owen's book . . . Practicing Medicine Without the Official Consent of the State Apparatus that Protects Profit over Health . . . and have ordered Linus' book. Have read a lot of this forum, and the website and the other website with all the testimonials. Maybe ordered too quickly, because I ordered the Vitamin C Powder and two jars of Cardio C. If I'd waited, I'd probably get the A-9 (isn't that the one with all the stuff in it?). But this will do for a start I hope. I'll have read both books by my next order, but I hope this will do for now.

Since I'm having dental issues that won't be fixed for several months (can't have dental work after a heart attack), I worry about getting enough nutrients. I have a VitaMix and drink my salads. I take 15-20 Chlorella/Spirulina caps a day. I also use the fabulous Ultimate Meal which has the purest, well-formulated ingredients: http://theultimatelife.net/CatalogMealBenefits.htm

I order some E before I saw here that Unique E is the best, but I'll use up this bottle first.

Also read the paper on Bowel Tolerance, and a few other pdfs and sites suggested in comments. Oh, and a week and a half after my heart attack, I woke up with a huge abscess on a gum tooth, infection went all the way to the bone and was incredibly painful. Am now on antibiotics for that, and I feel the heart and teeth are connected. So. Now to my questions.

1. I used a very fine trace mineral powder which I mix with water and sip all day. Can I mix the Cardio C drink in with my mineral powder?
2. Can I make the Cardio C drink and sip it all day? Or is it better to make it fresh for each dose?
3. Since I'm just starting, how much Cardio C should I begin with on a daily basis?
4. I read where the dosage should be raised 500mg at a time, but how fast does one increase dosage? (I'm assuming I'll use the Vit C Powder when I need higher dosages.)
5. And do I need to increase the lysine/proline when I increase the Vit C?
6. Where is the best place to buy K2 and how much do I take?

I'm gonna try all this, because I really don't want the Pharmafia meds. I believe they are killers. BTW, my dear Mom was into organic foods and such in the 1950s, had her own organic garden, too me to meet Adele Davis when I was in the 3rd grade, Dr. Royal Lee, and others. She read voraciously. Walked into my parents' bedroom one night, and Mom was reading Eat Right Live Longer and Dad was reading The Bride Screamed Murder (Mickey Spillane). That always makes me chortle when I think of it. Anyway, she told me about Linus Pauling's work way back in the 1960s. So when I found these sites on the innertubz, my mind was really open to it. And grateful to Mom for planting these seeds in my brain.

Thanks,
Millie

[ofonorow]

Welcome - lot to digest. The advantage of Tower A-9 is that it contains many things you probably need - without pills - and probably wouldn't buy. But unless things have changed, it is now missing one key ingredient we used to have - vitamin K.

To your questions.

Oh, and a week and a half after my heart attack, I woke up with a huge abscess on a gum tooth, infection went all the way to the bone and was incredibly painful. Am now on antibiotics for that, and I feel the heart and teeth are connected. So. Now to my questions.

Great friend of the Foundation Ralph Lotz had a similar issue and found that 3 "squirts" of our new China-FREE (Quali-C) liposomal took the pain away. He was amazed. If you decide to try it and it works for you, please let us know.

1. I used a very fine trace mineral powder which I mix with water and sip all day. Can I mix the Cardio C drink in with my mineral powder?

The question is whether anything will react. Probably not. Should be okay. A general comment (thank you Linus Pauling) while the vitamins are essentially non-toxic at almost any reasonable dosage, the same cannot be said for minerals, which can become toxic and some doage.

2. Can I make the Cardio C drink and sip it all day? Or is it better to make it fresh for each dose?

The absolutely correct answer is to make it fresh (as there is a known loss of vitamin C after4 hours, which can be as high as 40-50%). What I do is add 50% or so more Vitamin C powder above the dosage I want (to account for the loss) and then I sip it all day.

3. Since I'm just starting, how much Cardio C should I begin with on a daily basis?

One or two servings depending you your bowel " reaction." Have you found these instructions for newbies? http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8026

4. I read where the dosage should be raised 500mg at a time, but how fast does one increase dosage? (I'm assuming I'll use the Vit C Powder when I need higher dosages.)

You said you read the Cathcart Titrating to Bowel Tolerance paper. One lesson is the sooner you reach the high optimal dosages, the sooner the body will start healing properly and recover.

5. And do I need to increase the lysine/proline when I increase the Vit C?

For most people 5000 to 6000 mg of lysine does the trick (as it did on the first case Pauling published and mentions on the video lecture.)

In the book I cite my uncle who had success with half (2500 mg) of the dosage.

For most people 10,000 mg of vitamin C does the trick, but others may require higher.

6. Where is the best place to buy K2 and how much do I take?

I purchase Super-K from Life Extension (LEF.ORG) and I note that when tested, Life Extension supplements are always rated excellent. (And my wife takes Super-K and her current calcium score from a Heart Scan is ZERO). Dr. Levy mentions some other brands in his most recent book DEATH BY CALCIUM.

[MillieNeon]

Thank you for your reply, Owen.

Great friend of the Foundation Ralph Lotz had a similar issue and found that 3 "squirts" of our new China-FREE (Quali-C) liposomal took the pain away. He was amazed. If you decide to try it and it works for you, please let us know.

Been on antibiotics for several days now, so the pain is gone.

Had not found the instructions for newbies! Thank you. Didn't know if you had them or where to find them.

Do you get everything from LEF? Lysine, Ultimate E, etc? Or is there a link for trusted retailers and brands?

Millie

[MillieNeon]

Read the link for newbies. Thank you. May I suggest you post that with the title of Information for Newbies or something? Because that would make it easier for us newbies to find it.

[MillieNeon]

One more question. Can I take Vitamin K2 with Plavix?

[Johnwen]

Simple answer! YES!!

Here's all you ever need to know about this.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11505

[MillieNeon]

Thank you, Johnwen. I actually read that link the other day when I was looking around this site. I did refuse the beta blockers, but was scared to refuse the Plavix and aspirin because my stent has indeed gotten occluded, and I'd stopped the Plavix last May, a year after getting the stent.

But I didn't see in that link where it says it's safe to take Plavix with Vit K. Did I miss that?

I intend to stop the Plavix when I feel comfortable on this program. I'm still learning.

Always happy to hear suggestions and find out more info.

[MillieNeon]

Er . . . now that I think about it, I guess since Plavix just makes the platelets slippery, K wouldn't force them together.

[lolex]

Hi Millie,

I take Koncentrated K from this site...http://www.k-vitamins.com/ The Researcher who configured this formula did so to save his own life. There is a lot of very detailed information on the site.

Importantly he maintains that it is essential to supplement with Vitamin D (5,000IU minimum) and Vitamin A from carrots in order to get the Vitamin K1, K2 (M4 & M7) to work properly.

I can't find the detailed references there right now just this "l.) The liver looks at the vitamin K and D levels and adjusts the amount of vitamin A in proportion to your body - - -so eat your carrots - - - beta carotene is far safer than taking vitamin A.

m.) One cannot really take too much vitamin D and K or carrots (lol)."

Added by Edit

I found this in an email I sent a friend based on the Koncentrated K site information -

K is fat soluble so make sure you take it with some fat - half a glass of milk will do.

" Vitamin A needs Vitamin D... but D does not need A.... Vitamin D needs Vitamin K but K does not need D... however, K does need A"

Vitamin A can come from eating a couple of raw carrots a day or cod liver oil.

Vitamin D - you need to take 5,000IU per day if you're not in the sun a lot. You can get a blood test to check your vit D levels, but the latest research shows that the 'normal' range is too low for optimal health. Dr Mercola recommends 8,000IU per day supplementation.

As said before the author is a serious researcher - who bet his life on what he found... K2 is recommended by Owen and JohnWen.

[purposefirst]

I went to the Koncentrated K -- it looks terrific! I've been using Life Extension Super K combined with Thorne's liquid K2 (Mk 4) which I believe is good, but Koncentrated K looks like a good alternative. (The Thorne K2 is expensive.)

One cannot really take too much vitamin D and K or carrots

In regard to vitamin D, that is NOT correct. Too much D can be toxic as Dr. Levy points out in his books. It looks like most people need around 5,000 units of D, but testing one's level is necessary to make sure you do not go too high.
For example, I've been taking 7,000 IU of D per day. The proper blood range is 32-100 mg/mL. I test at 52 mg/mL which is perfect for an older person. (Dr. Levy says older people should NOT aim for the higher end of the range.)

I've read that vitamin A can interfere with absorption of vitamin K. Maybe that is why the Koncentrated website says eat a carrot (mimimal vit A). There is a moderate amount of A (carotenoids) in my multi, which I'm assuming does not interfere too much with K. Other than that, I'm taking a tsp. of cod liver oil once every second day, at the end of the last meal. Could use more info on amounts and limit on Vit A.

K is fat soluble so make sure you take it with some fat - half a glass of milk will do.

Yes, K is fat soluble, but as Dr. Levy says emphatically: Avoid milk! (And calcium supplements if you have atherosclerosis, etc.). Plenty of better ways to get some fat (nuts, egg yolk, avocado, etc.)

[ofonorow]

Interesting points in the above post.

In regard to vitamin D, that is NOT correct. Too much D can be toxic as Dr. Levy points out in his books. It looks like most people need around 5,000 units of D, but testing one's level is necessary to make sure you do not go too high.
For example, I've been taking 7,000 IU of D per day. The proper blood range is 32-100 mg/mL. I test at 52 mg/mL which is perfect for an older person. (Dr. Levy says older people should NOT aim for the higher end of the range.)

Careful on the vitamin D "toxicity." One confusing factor is that the synthetic vitamin D(2) form, as Pauling points out in HTLLAFB, can be toxic, and these results tend to be lumped in with all forms of vitamin D.

The Gary Null "experiment" was telling. His own product contained 100 to 1000 times the amount of vitamin D3 that was on the label, so that Null unknowingly consumed about 3,000,000 (3 million) IU daily.

Yes he did get sick, and mad, etc. But he lived!!!

I've read that vitamin A can interfere with absorption of vitamin K. Maybe that is why the Koncentrated website says eat a carrot (mimimal vit A). There is a moderate amount of A (carotenoids) in my multi, which I'm assuming does not interfere too much with K. Other than that, I'm taking a tsp. of cod liver oil once every second day, at the end of the last meal. Could use more info on amounts and limit on Vit A.

Do you have any reference on the finding that vitamin A can "interfere with the absorption of vitamin K?" I'll bet a quarter the effect is minor and in lab rats. However, if true, this probably means that both fat soluble vitamins share the same intestinal pathway into the blood. This would imply that taking them separately would offer maximum bioavailability. (And keep in mind that healthy intestinal "flora" (bacteria) normally produce vitamin K that the body can use. (I have had a thought that an epidemiological study on the use of antibiotics and calcification might prove interesting. Or conversely, on taking probiotics and lowering calcium in soft tissue.)

[johnyascorbate]

Regarding K and A absorption I found this on the Linus Pauling Institue website- "Large doses of vitamin A and vitamin E have been found to antagonize vitamin K (8). Excess vitamin A appears to interfere with vitamin K absorption, whereas vitamin E may inhibit vitamin K-dependent carboxylase activity and interfere with the coagulation cascade (99)."
Here is the link http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminK/krefs.html#ref8
The reference is there but I wasn't able to find the original study.
I am curious about this because I take well over 45 mg of Vitamin k everyday along with a fairly high dose of Vitamin A.

Should they be taken separately, Owen and how far apart?

[purposefirst]

Careful on the vitamin D "toxicity." One confusing factor is that the synthetic vitamin D(2) form, as Pauling points out in HTLLAFB, can be toxic, and these results tend to be lumped in with all forms of vitamin D.

Owen,
With all due respect, you seem to be playing down the importance of keeping supplementation of vitamin D3 within limits. Dr Levy devotes chapter 8 in Death by Calcium to a discussion about vitamin D.

"...vitamin D can become toxic if blood levels remain elevated for too long." (p. 136)

"Both vitamin D excess and vitamin D deficiency promote bone resorption, with much of the calcium loss from the bone contributing to excess calcium elsewhere in the body." (p. 135) [eg: arteries]

Dr Levy appears to be talking about vitamin D3 here. The last sentence of the chapter is:

"However, periodic monitoring of vitamin D3 blood levels is essential in the supplementation of this extremely valuable nutrient."

[ofonorow]

It is a matter of perspective. Nothing wrong with monitoring vitamin D levels. Mine are around 35 u with the UV/B light. One of my alt doc thinks that's low and would like to see it about 50 u. (Sorry this from memory - don't have my lab results handy. I am happy because the levels I maintain are generally sufficient to prevent winter illness.)

I believe that as long as you are taking vitamin D, vitamin A and vitamin K together, there is little chance of harm, and again, the unintended Gary Null experiment shows, and the reason Pauling coined the term "orthomolecular," that vitamins (unlike minerals) in almost any amount are safe. If there is "toxicity", then stopping the high dosage usually resolves the issue. Vitamin "toxicity", unlike the toxicity of a pharmaceutical, is usually not fatal, that's all.

I'll have to read the LPI cautions. (Up until now I thought their work on micronutrients was generally excellent - except for one glaring exception. Vitamin C )

That LPI reference is apparently to a book - meaning the book would have (hopefully) the references to this interaction... Sigh..

[purposefirst]

I believe that as long as you are taking vitamin D, vitamin A and vitamin K together, there is little chance of harm, and again, the unintended Gary Null experiment shows, and the reason Pauling coined the term "orthomolecular," that vitamins (unlike minerals) in almost any amount are safe. If there is "toxicity", then stopping the high dosage usually resolves the issue. Vitamin "toxicity", unlike the toxicity of a pharmaceutical, is usually not fatal, that's all.

Owen, you are an expert on orthomolecular therapy as is Dr. Levy, and I have great respect for both of you. But when two experts differ on something, I have to decide which one makes more sense.

You point out that Gary Null ended up okay after taking extremely massive doses of vitamin D. You still seem to minimize concern about too much D. Null took those huge amounts for a relatively short period of time, right? The time period is a key factor.

Dr. Levy is rather emphatic about the toxicity of too much vitamin D (for an extended period of time, is implied.) Too much D and too little D can both cause osteoporosis. Excessive supplemental D can also contribute toward too much calcium absorbed from food. Too much D can lead to excessive calcium in the blood which may then be deposited in other tissues – such as in the arteries and possibly in the heart itself. In my case, since I have calcified plaque, I certainly do not want any excess calcium in my blood!!! I go with Dr. Levy on this. I'm taking 7,000 IU/day of D3 which is putting me at 54 ng/mL, which I think is close to perfect for me. Going by Dr. Levy's information, I consider it to be very important to keep vitamin D level within limits, especially for anyone with atherosclerosis.

You mentioned LPI, so I looked up their info on vitamin D. Here's an excerpt:

"Vitamin D toxicity (hypervitaminosis D) induces abnormally high serum calcium levels (hypercalcemia), which could result in bone loss, kidney stones, and calcification of organs like the heart and kidneys if untreated over a long period of time. Hypercalcemia has been observed following daily doses of greater than 50,000 IU of vitamin D (37). Overall, research suggests that vitamin D toxicity is very unlikely in healthy people at intake levels lower than 10,000 IU/day."