vitamin k

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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sharonstar
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vitamin k

Post Number:#1  Post by sharonstar » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:24 pm

I recently read an article in Dr. Stepen Sinatra's newsletter about vitamin K2(as MK7). He stated that calcium regression can be seen at 180-360 mcg daily and it takes 3 years to see regression. I believe in that same article that he suggester 150 mcg twice daily for calcium reversal. I have been taking the Super K with Advanced K2 complex from Life Extension which gives 100 mcg of MK7, 1000 mcg of MK4 and 1000 mcg of K1. I just purchased the vitamin k complex from Vitacost that has vitamin K1 at 200 mcg and K2(MK7) at 200 mcg. I am just wondering if 400 mcg of the K2 is too much on a daily basis as I do frequently eat kale.

The last carotid ultrasound showed improvement from the previous year but I also have a 70% blockage of the LAD. A cardiac cath was reccomended which I have declined because I'm sure I'd come out with a stent. I am hoping that continuing the vitamin c, lysine, proline, fish oil, etc. and low carb diet will prevent an event.

Thanks.
Sharon

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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#2  Post by Dolev » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:42 pm

Sharon,

Vitamin K of different types has been taken without harm at doses far larger than what you're talking about. The main thing people - especially uninformed physicians - may worry about is over-coagulation of blood, since the only thing most people know about vitamin K is that it activates clotting factors. There's nothing to worry about, because the factors needing vitamin K are saturated at very low levels of the vitamin, and once they are saturated, no amount of vitamin K will make clotting happen any faster. However, the vitamin K dependent enzymes responsible for pushing calcium out of the arteries and pulling calcium into the bones need higher vitamin K levels to function properly.
Dolev

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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#3  Post by J.Lilinoe » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:36 am

There's nothing to worry about, because the factors needing vitamin K are saturated at very low levels of the vitamin, and once they are saturated, no amount of vitamin K will make clotting happen any faster. However, the vitamin K dependent enzymes responsible for pushing calcium out of the arteries and pulling calcium into the bones need higher vitamin K levels to function properly.



Dolev, could you elaborate more on your statements? The naturalpathic doctor that we use here is also against my mother taking vitamin K to remove calcifications in her arteries because he is afraid that it will form blood clots and he does not want my mom to have another stroke. I sure would like to know how higher levels of vitamin K would affect blood clots. Thanks.

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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:21 am

In my opinion, Dolev explained it quite clearly and your Naturopath is as ignorant about vitamin K as most orthodox doctors. (I am a little angry because a relative has been advised not to eat vegetables !?!? because this relative is on coumadin... Much if not most of the vitamin K produced is made by intestinal flora so this advice is absurd!)
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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#5  Post by sharonstar » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:45 am

Thanks to all. I just referred back to Dr. Thomas Levy's book and he recommends vitamin K2 from 3-9 mg, a much higher dose than I have been taking. So I trust that completely. I will be seeing an alternative doctor next week and it will be interesting to hear what his opinion is.

Sharon

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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#6  Post by Ralph Lotz » Sat Jul 04, 2009 8:28 am

Which K2 is Dr. Levy referring to?
9 mg of MK-4 would be way too little. 9 mg of MK-7 would be way too much.

I don't know what studies Sinatra is referencing? MK-7 hasn't been around as a nutritional supplement for more than a few years since it was found in high concentratios in natto cheese. One of the prominent researchers is Schurgers, who showed dramatic calcification reduction in warfarin (coumadin) treated rats. The recommended maintenance dose for humans is 45 mcg believed to not interfere with anticoagulants.
200-400mcg for therapy would require caution if anticoagulants are being used.

Schurgers and colleagues demonstrated that a daily
dose of 146 μg significantly increased serum levels
of vitamin K2 after 14d (Schurgers, 2007).


Here is a link to articles by prominent MK-7 researcher L.K. Schurgers:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en ... -schurgers

Also consider that to protect against arterial calcification vitamin D3 levels measured as 25 (OH) D should be between 30-100 ng-ml. To maintain these levels requires either 20 minutes of full body exposure to sun between 10 am and 2 pm daily or a supplement of 5,000 iu daily according to some experts.
Last edited by Ralph Lotz on Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#7  Post by J.Lilinoe » Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:28 am

Thanks Ralph for those studies. I want to find a study for the naturalpath that says that taking increased amounts of Vitamin K will not cause an increase in blot clots especially for those who have already had strokes.
/

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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#8  Post by Ralph Lotz » Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:58 am

Dolev states correctly:
There's nothing to worry about, because the factors needing vitamin K are saturated at very low levels of the vitamin, and once they are saturated, no amount of vitamin K will make clotting happen any faster. However, the vitamin K dependent enzymes responsible for pushing calcium out of the arteries and pulling calcium into the bones need higher vitamin K levels to function properly.


No problem unless a person is on anticoagulants.

When antiicoagulants like coumadin are used, vitamin K requirements are increased resulting in severe aortic calcification.
Modern allopathic cardiovascular medicine substitutes calcification and hemorrhage for possible thrombosis while ignoring homeostasis.

It appears that the levels of MK-7 to remove calcium from the arteries is several orders of magnitude lower than for K1 and K2 as MK-4, not only because it is absorbed better, but it also has a longer half life.
The brand of raw material mentioned in several studies is in these supplements available here:
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SWU462/I ... 4294967189
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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#9  Post by Dolev » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:29 am

JL,

Sorry I didn't get back to you; I haven't visited the forum for the last few days.

Unfortunately, I can't find a report about vitamin K which I was hired to do a couple of years ago that had the relevant research. You can either go to Pubmed.com and do some searches there or go to http://www.vitamink2.org/?znfAction=welcome where they bring a lot of research. You'll probably find what you need.
Dolev

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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#10  Post by J.Lilinoe » Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:50 pm

Dolev,
Thanks for that website. Very informative. I sent it to my naturalpath so that he hopefully will read and learn from it.

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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#11  Post by pamojja » Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:50 am

Ralph Lotz wrote:MK-7 hasn't been around as a nutritional supplement for more than a few years since it was found in high concentratios in natto cheese.

phew.. haven't even seen it once at a local pharmacy here where I live.

sharonstar wrote:I have been taking the Super K with Advanced K2 complex from Life Extension which gives 100 mcg of MK7, 1000 mcg of MK4 and 1000 mcg of K1.

In it's directions of use I read:
Directions: wrote:Take one softgel daily with a meal ... Do not take with fiber supplements.

On one hand it clearly talks about 'fiber supplements' only. On the other - my meals contain about 25 grams of fiber - about the amount in fibre suppements too.

Therefore, does anyone knows if fibre hindering vitamin K's absorbtion would make it more advantageous to take K's inbetween meals?

sharonstar wrote:He stated that calcium regression can be seen at 180-360 mcg daily and it takes 3 years to see regression. I believe in that same article that he suggester 150 mcg twice daily for calcium reversal.

sharonstar wrote:... Levy's book and he recommends vitamin K2 from 3-9 mg, a much higher dose than I have been taking.

Ralph Lotz wrote:Schurgers and colleagues demonstrated that a daily
dose of 146 mcg significantly increased serum levels
of vitamin K2 after 14d (Schurgers, 2007).

Ralph Lotz wrote:The brand of raw material mentioned in several studies is in these supplements available here:
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SWU462/I ... 4294967189

Chapter 7 The Pauling Therapy wrote:10. Supplement with vitamin K, either the K1 or K2
form (1 to 40 mg K1 or 150 mcg K2).

That's quite confusing:

Levy 3-9 mg
Sinatra 180-360 mcg
Pauling 150 mcg
Schurgers 146 mcg
Swansons 100mcg

Guessing that all mean K2 the MK7 type, and considering that Sinatra observed that it takes 3 years to see any calcium reversal - could Vitacost's twice daily be the best choice?

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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:52 am

Therefore, does anyone knows if fibre hindering vitamin K's absorbtion would make it more advantageous to take K's inbetween meals?


I do have experience with fiber interfering with vitamin C/lysine absorption, and if it does interfere, then yes, do not take your vitamin K within 2 hours of fiber. Also I infer that fat soluble vitamin K (like CoQ10) requires fat to be absorbed properly, which is why it would be recommended with meals. So take it when you eat a fat, minus the fiber.

I do think the general vitamin K dosages do not necessarily separate vitamin K1 and K2, causing the confusion. It is my understanding that generally, high amounts of K1 (mg) are required for calcium regression, but micrograms of K2. That is why I like the LEF product which contains both.

As far as the 3 year regression, we have a poster to this forum where an apparent regression only required a few months, and I have an experience where micrograms of vitamin K for one year induced an apparent regression. So 3 years is very conservative, and the delay may be due to other factors, including the medications that medical doctors are almost required to prescribe.
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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#13  Post by pamojja » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:15 am

ofonorow wrote:I do think the general vitamin K dosages do not necessarily separate vitamin K1 and K2, causing the confusion. It is my understanding that generally, high amounts of K1 (mg) are required for calcium regression, but micrograms of K2. That is why I like the LEF product which contains both.

Thanks for your reply. This makes it much clearer.

ofonorow wrote:I do have experience with fiber interfering with vitamin C/lysine absorption, and if it does interfere, then yes, do not take your vitamin K within 2 hours of fiber. Also I infer that fat soluble vitamin K (like CoQ10) requires fat to be absorbed properly, which is why it would be recommended with meals. So take it when you eat a fat, minus the fiber.

I eat twice a day only and it's really difficult fo think my meals without fibre.

In order to take it with fat inbetween meals - I could take it with some fish oil capsules instead? Or would this fat again interfere with C and lysine I usually take at that time?

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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#14  Post by Johnwen » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:47 am

I'm new here hope I do this right, here's the break down.
Vit.-D3 (cholecalciferol) Mobilizes calcium into the blood stream also breaks down exsisting calcium build ups on soft tissue. Problem: If you smoke it's more attracted to nicotine and goes around collecting nictone and ignores the calcium.
Vitamin K2 MK-4 (Menatetrenone) Requires about 5-10 MG to be effective.
Vitamin K2 MK-7 (Menaquinone) Requires 40-400 MCG (Micro Grams) To be effective.
Either one slows the production of osteocasts (homone that allows the body to take calcium from the bones) and promotes Osteoblasts (Hormone that places excess Calcium back into the bones).
You can see that to remove calcium out of soft tissue a combo of D3 and K2 speeds the process K2 alone waits for the body to break the calcium down and then takes it back to the bones. That's why it can take up to 3 years to see results. There's a link to a D site in a previous post that explains how D works. Hope this clears the mud a little.
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Re: vitamin k

Post Number:#15  Post by Daniel D » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:40 pm

Where does you know the nicotine / Vitamin D³ thing? any sources for it? Would appreciate any info on this.


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